Daughter-Father Dance Podcast
TRANSCRIPT
Episode 7: The Origin of Choice

SHOW INTRO

[00:00:00] Jenée Arthur: [VOICEOVER]
Hey everybody. Today's episode is a difficult one. It's one that makes my stomach hurt just thinking about it. And I have my suspicions as to why; one of which is how much I know this issue truly hurts my dad— to his core. I've had more talks than this one about this subject with Dad. And every time, I walk away feeling a great deal of sympathy for his views.

This is a subject that is hyper divisive— and for reason, but I hope that today listeners come away with a better understanding of persons on the other side of this issue than themselves today. Be it, me, or Dad, depending on where you fall within your own perspective?.Well, that's my hope in any of these conversations—that we try for once to see through the lens from which the other person is seeing.

We may peer through and say, “Ooh, yuck. I don't want to look at this. It's ugly or it's too hard. Or it brings something up in me that's uncomfortable or conjures feelings I don't quite understand.”

But what if the only way we are going to manifest unity on any of these tougher-than-hell issues is to talk and to listen to the other side of the story.

This is never more apparent than in these types of conversations with. And thank God I have a father that allows me to speak my mind ,and feels enough conviction to speak his. I wonder too, if my sick-to-my-stomach feeling might be because my own stance on this topic draws scrutiny about— at the end of the day, where I fully stand. And how do we resolve this?

You'll hear more about all of this. But I do want to say that if you are triggered by the subject of abortion, you might want to sit this one out. We don't get graphic or say anything terribly horrible, but we do talk frankly about it. So if that could potentially upset you, we encourage you to sit this one out and we hope to see you back here next week.

And lastly, before we turn to mine and dad's conversation, I hope everyone who listens knows that my intention for these conversations is to help heal and open dialogue that allows healing in a world divided and hurting. Divided, and hurting on this subject. And so many others.

Okay. Here we go.

My position on this very controversial subject is one that I best described several years ago when I was in Seattle to a woman who essentially called me out for a comment I made about my stance on pro-life

...Answering a question. “Yes, I am pro-life personally because I do believe. Human life begins at conception. However, I am pro-choice societally because I do not... my friends, some of my friends and people in the world do not have the same belief that human life begins at conception.” And that really bothered her.

Okay. Where's my responsibility? And what can I see from what she's saying back to me and what it did? It didn't change my mind. It really actually solidified my stance because I think it's like anything, right. Is there a universal truth or is truth personal to an individual? And I think there are certain truths that are personal to an individual.

My truth in this scenario. I am pro-life personally because I believe that a human life is formed at conception, but I don't think people can mandate laws and deny the ability to be pro choice in terms of the abortion argument, because some people do not believe the same thing I do. So it feels like a really slippery slope to mandate laws that only support one side of a belief.

[00:03:47] Gene Arthur:
Well think about this— prior to the seventies and the late sixties, that was not something that was the normal everyday language. Now, given that, you were a child or even before you were born, there was no pro-life/pro-choice agenda. Or talking points. This is something that evolved on a bigger scale or more often scale.

When this abortion issue became something that was advanced by media, but for everyday language or everyday conversation, the pro-life pro-choice thing evolved because of politics. That was nothing we talked about being pro-life. That was his like “Where the hell did it come from?” Back in the late sixties, early seventies, this thing about pro-life or,

[00:04:51] Jenée Arthur: Well, right, but it came about because of Roe V Wade.

I mean, Roe V Wade is what put the pro-life pro-choice narrative on the landscape of society. Can I go back to what you were asked saying about, or what you asserted about it being a political move, because what are you citing on that? What agenda are you citing? That it was political.

[00:05:13] Gene Arthur:
Well, I'm trying to think chronologically of, uh, how I could develop that or explain it better.

Uh, I said political because I think the seeds that were scattered during this whole debate on the Supreme court, taking this case about a woman's privacy. This was talked about prior to it going to the Supreme court. It was exposed during the Supreme courts.

[00:05:46] Jenée Arthur:
My understanding is that it …a spotlight was shown on it once because it became a, uh, a very pivotal Supreme Court case.

[00:05:53] Gene Arthur:
Yeah. But my, my idea is why did it have to go to the Supreme Court? Why wasn't this— Why wasn't this decided by the medical professions? That's whose instructions in medical books talk about, uh, life begins at conception that all of a sudden it became “why do we believe that while..”

[00:06:18] Jenée Arthur:
But I don't know if that's in medical books. How does… can you cite a medical book?

[00:06:23] Gene Arthur:
Yeah. Uh, doctors are instructed that life begins at conception because they talk about the, uh, reproductive process. The sperm and the egg and the fertilization of it and how it becomes implanted and how it grows. All that is in the medical books for people who want to get in the medical field.

That's just, that's just one piece of a lot of different things that they study while they're.

[00:06:53] Jenée Arthur:
I see what you're saying. You're saying why couldn't we leave it to the.. not subject it to the Supreme court and it be politicized, but leave it in the medical hands. What is your… is your argument that at one point we all believed that conception, or, excuse me, human life started when the sperm hit the egg?

[00:07:10] Gene Arthur:
Correct.

[00:07:11] Jenée Arthur:
Okay, I'm not sure that assertion is true but let's just go with that. Okay. Because I don't, I'm not looking anything up right now. I'm looking at you and I don't want to get on the. Internet and clickety clack, but for the sake of this argument, and we can do some research in post about it.

But for the sake of this argument, let's say at one point it was universally accepted that at conception, that was human life— because, see the arguments now, or, you know, that I've been privy to and spoken with people that have actually had abortion. There is this gray area of what are they destroying?

Are they destroying a sack of cells? Or are they destroying a human life? And that's what I want to talk about today, because again, and I don't know what it's from. Somebody said, “Well, what's that from? Is it from science or is it from your upbringing?”

I don't care what it's from. It's from what I believe. Right? Just like, I believe there's a God, but what I want to get into is this whole piece of mandating that they [abortions] can't happen because other people don't believe the way that I believe.

[00:08:09] Gene Arthur: Okay (heavy sigh)

[00:08:11] Jenée Arthur: [VOICEOVER]
Ugh. I can hear the exhaustion in Dad's voice. He's been fighting for the unborn for as long as I can remember. And it's been a rough fight for him, because again, he believes that innocent lives are being destroyed.

And whether you or I believe otherwise he's not giving up the fight, but it's an exhausting one. I just think there's another way to move the needle on bridging the divide than criminalizing a woman's choice to do what she feels is right for her life and her. Because I don't believe there are very many women whom if they thought for a second, they were murdering a child would entertain abortion.

This is the stance I'm trying to take with my father.

[00:08:57] Gene Arthur:
Going back to let's say the founding fathers of our country, that we are citizens in. There is a phrase that all men are created equal endowed within inalienable rights of life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Okay. That was back in the 1700's.

When that became a constitution. Prior to that, it was already thought of. And it was taken for granted in religion, the scriptures. And you've got to remember when scripture was given to us in a book form, the Catholic Church formed manuscripts into a book form in the Council of Hippo in year 385. Or it should say the years, 385 to 405.

It took years to accumulate all the handwritten known manuscripts from the Apostolic Age, which is the first, second, third, and fourth centuries, and brought together. Well, scripture even says when the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and explained to her that she was going to conceive a child in her womb that was taken for granted— that was known throughout all Christianity, that God became man through Mary.

And he became man by the conception of the Holy Spirit in her womb. Well ,with that in mind, this idea that life begins not at conception, or it only begins when a fetus is brought through the birth canal and takes a breath, only then does that fetus become a human being. All of that has been suggested and talked about, uh, when human life begins.

When prior to all this in the sixties and seventies, life began at conception. Period. Nobody challenged that . Nobody questioned that. Even doctors not violating the Hippocratic Oath.

[00:11:04] Jenée Arthur:
Is it in the Hippocratic Oath? And I'm asking, because I don't know— is it in the Hippocratic oath? Life begins at conception; that a human is formed?

[00:11:14] Gene Arthur:
I don't know where it says it if it's in the Hippocratic Oath, but I bring that Hippocratic Oath up because the doctor takes an oath to defend life period. Now, when does life begin? They knew they knew it began at conception. So they took an oath believing that that's the point I'm making.

[00:11:34] Jenée Arthur:
It's a good point. It is.

[00:11:36] Gene Arthur:
So all this crap, all this stuff about “when does the fetus become a human?” “When is it not a bunch of cells thrown together? “Well, good grief! How in the world are any of us brought into this world? We're conceived in our mother's womb by the fact that our father's sperm fertilized, our mothers egg. And new life began from that fertilization of that sperm and egg. Life begins at conception.

That's when God assigns us our own angel. Life begins then.

[00:12:11] Jenée Arthur:
So really, when we're born, we're nine months old then.

[00:12:14] Gene Arthur:
Exactly! And you know, there's this, there's a…

[00:12:18] Jenée Arthur: They should get our birthday straight. Cause that's…

[00:12:20] Gene Arthur: Well, let me tell you this story. I'm not sure how accurate I am on it, but there's a ethnic group that believes that counting from when that child was conceived as the beginning, they don't call when the child is delivered.

They don't call that the birthday. They just call that to the day they...

[00:12:27] Jenée Arthur: Entered the world?

[00:12:42] Gene Arthur: Uh, something like that, but…

[00:12:44] Jenée Arthur: Well, that would sure help the argument a little bit. If we could get that straight, I mean, seriously.

The other piece of this pro-choice/pro-life narrative is the argument or it's, you know, it's, it's more than an argument. It's, uh, a war zone. There's that whole argument about it being our body, our choice. Right? And there's validity to that Dad, because this is one of those really tricky conversations to have with a white male that doesn't have to…you don't have the ramifications of this issue ever.

You'll never have to deal with it. You only get to make laws about it, or talk about it from a framework of faith or find justification in a way that you don't ever have to deal with the process that the woman has to go through. Even if you were the one who impregnated her.

[00:13:36] Gene Arthur: Well, why did you say, “white male”?

[00:13:38] Jenée Arthur: Well, because that's usually who's making the decisions about the laws.

[00:13:42] Gene Arthur: Why did you have to see a white male? Isn't that racist?

[00:13:45] Jenée Arthur: Because that's what you are. You're a white male... using you as an example of, you, like other men, they're not subject to any of the ramifications of this issue.

[VOICEOVER] Now, to be fair. My dad has a point. I didn't have to call out the fact that he is a white male and my stating that that's just what he is was a lame attempt to cover up why I really said it. It was a jab. Because I do feel that white males have an inordinate amount of privilege and are rarely affected by the laws.

They all seem to like to make laws around female empowerment of any kind, not just around abortion, but anything having to do with the feminine.

[00:14:27] Jenée Arthur: They're not subject to any of the ramifications of this issue. They just get to make the laws about it. Huh? And how are they?

[00:14:31] Gene Arthur: They are subject to any ramifications of it—going through the God, given design of procreation.

[00:14:40] Jenée Arthur: [VOICEOVER] Dad goes on here to proselytize morality. And I go on to say some pretty ugly things about men just squirting their seed and walking away and leaving women to deal with their literal fallout. It was ugly. And, it's not something I really want you to hear. But ,we found our footing again.

[00:15:03] Gene Arthur: Mankind has screwed up! Has done something different.

They've gotten away from the original plan. I'm saying that anybody that fathers a child is responsible for that child period by God's design. Now, if it wasn't followed the way God designed it, that's on us. That's not on God.

[00:15:25] Jenée Arthur: [VOICEOVER] Dad's assertion is that we are facing all these issues because most of the world is a bunch of sinful fornicators. Well, that's his perspective.

To lighten things up a bit. I'm going to read an excerpt from a blog post that I wrote about this next portion. It's light. And we could use a break from this hard conversation. And I think it will offer a different perspective on my dad relative to this subject.

[BLOG EXCERPT]
When my sister Julie and I were young, we accompanied our parents to pro-life rallies.

I use ‘accompanied’ lightly as we were never really given a choice [pun intended] as to whether we attended or stayed home. I would have done just about anything to be able to boycott these rallies. I even entertained telling Mom I would become a nun if she would just let me stay home. But I had a goal to be the first female priest and becoming a nun would totally foil that plan.

Instead, Julie and I, under duress, pile into the station wagon with our little arms dawning uncomfortable and poorly made metal Roe V Wade bracelets. Thankfully there was enough room in the middle seat so that we didn't have to share real estate with the “Save the embryos” posters stacked dozens high in the far back seat of our vehicle.

I was always confused at how people with empathy for unborn persons found it okay, and even somewhat imperative, to be so incredibly cruel to the living persons. Pro-lifers in those days tended to shout absurdities into the faces of people whose opinions, both scientific and religious, differed from theirs.

It was as confusing to me as overhearing Mom and Dad argue about religion. It confounded my sister and me witnessing the seething debates between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. They fostered the same strange feeling that would well up inside me hearing a heated conversation between my parents about their varied views on church matters.

My dad, as we all know, is impassioned about many things. Saving the lives of souls transported within an unborn embryo or fetus is absolutely no exception.

My most memorable story to convey Dad's passion and belief about the sanctity of the unborn took place Christmas of 2010 when Mr. And Mrs. Gladbach greeted us in the back of church.

After Christmas Eve mass at our family parish, we share greetings of typical holiday cheer as the Gladbachs eyeball the 16 members of my immediate family. And we somehow all avoid answering the awkward inquiry as to why Gene Arthur's oldest daughter has never settled down in marriage. A question most folks, including Jim Gladbach in this moment, ask in the third person—as if I'm not standing only feet away from them.

Seeing that the question is met with under our breath utterances of things such as laws having to change or “Jenée hasn't yet met the right woman..er uh or perso,” Mr. Gladbach proceeds to ask a question that is more benign and less awkward for everyone...
or so we think .

“Gene, how many grandchildren do you have?”

Dad beams with pride as he puts his arm around his oldest grandson, Nicholaus. “I have nine beautiful grandchildren, Jim. Joyce and I are very blessed.”

There is a moment of general confusion amongst me and my siblings as we look at one another with that WTF? gaze, and then finally shake our heads and roll our eyes. It's apparent that we are all resigned to the fact that spelling is not Dad's only weakness, but that math may also be one of his less fortified skills. We all turn and give Jim and Sandy Gladbach polite smiles and partial head nods as we look sideways at each other and I begin a headcount of my nieces and nephews .

After we hug these two people whom we likely will never see again until next year's Christmas mass, the four of us kids humorously berate my father for miscounting the grandchildren with whom he and Mom have been blessed.

We all laugh that sarcastic at-someone-else's-expense Arthur laugh, and I grab Dad's arm and say something about him being a piece of work.

As we all turn to leave the church for our convoy to our traditional meat pie madness, Dad stops abruptly turns to us and says with certainty, “I do have nine grandchildren.”

He then proceeds to the church exit. My siblings and I all immediately reply in unison, accompanied by his eight (not nine) grandchildren. “Um, no, you don't. You have eight grandchildren, Dad.”
At which point someone begins to name them out loud.

Dad stops again, turns to us and says matter of factly, “I have nine grandchildren. What about Finn?”

We're all expecting some sort of punchline. And when it isn't delivered, my brother says “Who the eff is, Finn?”

“My precious grandson who was miscarried,” Dad responds.

I'm not sure if someone actually punched me in the throat or if I somehow instantly grew an Adam's apple. A not huge as could be wells up in my esophagus.

Unable to speak and not quite sure I want to say anything at all, I try to anticipate what on earth could possibly happen after I am able to get my body to finally exhale.

I look over at my sister and wonder how her eyelids are moving so fast. I peer at my brothers and their wives. They resemble the mannequins used to stage those 1970s nuclear bomb-preparedness videos.

You know, the frozen, smiling fiberglass models standing lifeless in a serene domestic setting before the simulated bomb obliterates them into dust.

My brother, Jerrod, is the one who musters the courage to say anything, while I'm frankly just fine with having been momentarily struck deaf and dumb.

“Geez, Dad.Really? What the hell?”

I suddenly realize this ninth grandbaby Dad refers to belong to my dear brother, Jerrod. If he and my sister-in-law had had another boy, they would have named the baby Finnegan (or Finbar) and called him Finn.

This adds to the poignancy of the moment. Jerrod turns and walks away. I can't breathe— mostly because I can't imagine how my little brother is feeling, and because I know Dad is serious. He believes this— that he has nine grandchildren.

And though something about this is astonishing and unsettling to all of us, there is something that is equally fascinating about it, touching us all in an indescribable way. His unwavering faith and belief that a human soul perished in-utero before becoming a member of his family (the family that is the pride and joy, and the very reason for his existence) causes tears to well in Dad's eyes.

As he takes a moment to reflect without defensiveness or justification, my father inhales, turns from us, takes my mother's hand, begins to walk to the church exit, and says over his shoulder, “I pray for Finn every day. And I can't wait to meet him in heaven”

Oy. That damn knot expands in my throat. And now it feels as though someone has kicked me in the stomach.

I swallow hard. Look into the church sanctuary at the Blessed Sacrament and recall the conversation I had with Dad when I was a little girl; when he encouraged me to always be the one believer in a room full of non-believers. He imparted this wisdom, not only regarding faith, but in terms of remaining steadfast in my own individual beliefs while standing up for what is true and right. And especially when the weak and innocent are unable to do it for themselves.

I close my eyes and finally exhale, hoping that my brother is okay, and that my dad will someday soon stop carrying the weight of Jesus' cross on his back. As if on autopilot, I send a prayerful nod to Finn to please remind his grandfather that everything happens for a reason.

As we walk in solemnity and awkward confusion to our cars, I'm reminded of a poem I wrote to Mom on Mother's Day a few years ago—a couple of stanzas acknowledging the joy I must've felt when I chose to be born to her. “My choice.” I thought again. Of course, I don't really remember this pre-Earthen moment of selection, but what if I, and all of us, had a choice to come into the world the way we want and to whom.

I mean, if the very Source from which we all come is All-Encompassing with no beginning and no end— aren't we?

And what if we all have a choice before we enter the biological material known as human bodies?

It would certainly put an end to both sides of the debate about who, when, what, and where a human life begins and ends.

If we are all truly souls, then, as the Tibetan monks remind us, we never die. And we've always been.

Sure, it obliterates the strong stance everyone on either side of this and any other aisle-of-polarity issue we can conjure.

But what if it's true? If I had a choice about to whom I was born, maybe Finn decided at the last minute that he wanted to be somewhere else, or that my brother and sister’s lives would be more rich and full for experiencing the momentary loss of him, or that his grandfather would one day make a statement on Christmas Eve that would rock the world of his four children and give his eight living grandchildren something to ponder.

I have no idea. We don't know anything. We can only have faith that something is true or not true. And that faith is often directly related to what we want to believe.

I realized as I pass the doors of the church sanctuary that I don't know anything. I don't know anything, except that I have a father whom I dearly love and whose unapologetic faith means that he remains committed to fighting for unborn persons.

Though my life entails a path and a belief that differs from his— since I feel everyone should be able to make their choice— their own choice, about what is real and true for them (something, my daddy actually taught me). I'm finally at peace with our difference about this issue. I understand my Dad more in this moment.

And as I look back with a Cat In the Cradle perspective on our seething arguments about religion and the beliefs that surrounded it, I can finally breathe again.

I walk to catch up with Mom and Dad, take my dad's other hand and say to him, “I love you, Dad. Merry Christmas.”

Dad, smiles and clasps my hand tighter. Mom keeps walking forward without looking at either of us. I know this is because she is about to cry.

“Um. Hey guys, remember that time you blamed Terri for stopping up the toilet by flushing a tampon? Well, I was actually the one who stopped it up.”

They both look at me in confusion, as I was only 10 years old and both of them knew I wasn't yet menstruating at that time.

”Not with a tampon. I purposely flushed my pro-life bracelet down the toilet. I kind of hated it ,and it turned my wrist green,” I say, with the innocence of a 10 year old.

Dad looks down at me, pulls me and my mom closer to him and keeps walking. He could give a rat's ass about a toilet clog from 30 years ago, nor that damn metal bracelet, for that matter.

We have meat pies to consume. And it's Christmas season— a time of year when we are reminded about the important things in life. This particular Christmas, I am reminded that differing beliefs don't matter as long as everyone is kind and loving and open-minded about it all.

Later that night, it dawns on me that the 60 plus headcount of my closest relatives in this room could likely be skewed to over 70 if we, like my father, acknowledged all the Finns of our family.

This overwhelms my mind for a moment. As one of my cousin's kids shrieks, I wonder if Finn might have decided he didn’t really like crowds.

[00:26:41] Jenée Arthur: What?

[00:26:43] Gene Arthur: Nothing. Just thinking about what you want me to talk about.

[00:26:47] Jenée Arthur: Why are you laughing?

[00:26:49] Gene Arthur: Want me to talk about it now?

[00:26:43] Jenée Arthur: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Gene Arthur: Okay. She lost that child. That child had already been given a guardian angel and had already began life.

So I remember that child and I named that child Finbar because I knew his nickname would be Finny. Well, that's why I say what I do about Finbar that innocent child, innocent life that was formed. . We lost the child, that child was innocent.

[00:27:13] Jenée Arthur: It's definitely a beautiful testament of your belief that life begins at conception.

[00:27:21] Gene Arthur: There were arguments to saying, “Well, when does a human being become a human being?” And as you know, there were debates on at what stage in the pregnancy is this fetus considered a human being and endowed with rights of the constitution. It divided people and drew criticism from every walk of life. It was like a nightmare being lived out in everyday life,. All that stuff, Jenée, hit me personally, and your mom, as a, uh, an awake nightmare. How could this happen? What— are we savages? Are we Godless people? We don't understand how life begins? All those questions where I know we're going through my mind as a young man in my twenties, wondering what the hell is going on. And those are questions that we're still fighting today.

You may think that abortion should be a personal choice? Uh, it is a personal choice— and I believe it's just the wrong choice.

[00:28:30] Jenée Arthur: Right. But Dad, every, everything that's wrong that we choose personally is… whatever choice, we know right from wrong. And when we violate that, go against our knowing, we pay a price for that, no matter what, whether you believe in God or not. There is cause and effect.

So my point of not making laws, especially criminalizing things that are sometimes out of the person's control. My point is when whoever's making the choices. When, you know, as you call it “sin.” When we make a choice to “sin”, we pay a price. There's a consequence. My issue is that there's a political mandate being made around this choice, a political mandate around something that is not irrefutable that it is a human being.

I believe it is. You believe it is. But not everyone does. So until that's irrefutable and you can say you are murdering a human being, I don't think we can mandate that kind of a law because it basically means the court can mandate whatever else they want. So I'm just arguing the fact that I'm pro choice in societal because I'm pro choice for anything.

People have to make their own choices. That's between them and God. Always. Now, if it's murder— you can't gun somebody down in the street because you are murdering a human being that we all believe and know has taken breath— is a life. I can't argue with people that have their issues around “I didn't abort a person.I aborted tissue.”

Just because I believe life begins at conception, I can't put that on someone else. And that's why I am pro-life personally. And I am pro-choice societally— because I am absolutely against a group of judges saying that a choice I'm making, I can't make.

[00:30:18] Gene Arthur: Well, a group of judges made it possible for you to even make that statement by legalizing abortion.

[00:30:25] Jenée Arthur: But Dad, they were legalizing a process that was happening anyway, in alleys and behind closed doors and women were dying. People were, not just babies were being killed, people, women that were pregnant with these babies.

They gave the medical community the ability to live out that person's choice rather than them have to go hide and do it.

That's, that's the way that I'm seeing it. And I get what you're saying, how you're seeing it. Personally, I agree. But I can't put that on somebody else.

[00:31:04] Gene Arthur: Well, the author of life, God himself in the commandment says ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Abortion is murder, plain and simple.

[00:31:04] Gene Arthur: Yeah. Well, Pooh, you said that you personally are against abortion, but you sound to me like a politician.

[00:31:12] Jenée Arthur: I do.

[00:31:13] Gene Arthur: Yeah. “Oh, personally I am against abortion. Um, but…”

[00:31:17] Jenée Arthur: Wait, wait, wait, I didn't say… I said personally I believe life begins at conception.

[00:31:23] Gene Arthur: Okay. I heard you say that. I believe that too.

[00:31:26] Jenée Arthur: Okay. But societally, I don't have the right to put my belief on someone else is my point of being pro-choice I'm only pro-choice in that.

I don't think the law should mandate whether someone believes that that is a child at conception or a sack of tissue for however many weeks is. That's what I'm asserting. And that's what I believe.

So Dad, how do you think, um, we resolve this? Like, if you think of, you know, like one of the intents behind this podcast is that you and I have different beliefs, or see things from a different perspective, but we don't allow it to keep us divided. How are we going to bridge the divide on this?

And I think, if I may, we have to talk more about it.

We have to educate people. We have to give people. I mean, and I'm not saying I'm saying on both sides of it, right? Like that's my kind of shtick anyway. I think we're too busy pointing fingers at each other and saying “you're pro-life or you’re pro choice, or you're a Democrat or you're a Republican, or you're an anti-vaxxer or you're a vaxxer,” or… and it's like—we're all humans struggling with the same issues wrapped in different packages.

So let's talk about it. But what do you think as just a man, my dad, that it’s going to take for us to resolve this because if you think about it…

Okay. Think about it this way. Like, I know a lot of people, I was once one, who don't eat animals because they don't want to kill them or they don't eat animals because they think it's a burden on planet earth.

I have friends that think that's ludicrous. They eat animals. They cite, like you do, biblical justification of it. That “Man has dominion over all,” so we can shoot that thing and eat it.

Okay. We all can look at that from so many different ways, but the truth is my belief when I was a vegan that not eating meat was my choice.

I could not assert that and put that on someone else, because they don't see it that way. They see it for all the things I just told you.

That's what I'm saying about my stance on this whole pro-life pro-choice narrative, because as you said, it once wasn't a narrative, it once was, I don't know what it was cause I didn't live back then. It was, wasn't a big issue. And do I think things are politicized? Hell yeah. I think more things than need to be are politicized. And that's why we are halfway, half the reason or however, whatever, percentage we are in these problems. But at the end of the day, if you don't believe four weeks into your pregnancy, eight weeks into your pregnancy, that's actually a baby…

I don't know how to get to get over that hurdle, Dad, because you're not going to convince somebody just by throwing Catholic doctrine or dogma or Bible verses out. It's not convincing. My question to you is, what could be? And certainly it's not going to pro-life rallies and yelling at people across the aisle with signs of dismembered baby parts. Those things don't work.

So what is it going to take for this to no longer a divisive narrative?

[00:34:27] Gene Arthur: I, I just pray daily for an end to legalized abortion. It's just one of my prayers I pray daily. There's a lot of prayers I pray daily, but because we're talking about this subject…

The basic foundation for any solution is prayer.

[00:34:45] Jenée Arthur: [VOICEOVER]
And though I agree with Dad on this— that prayer is the foundation of any solution, I want to offer another note to end on.

I want you to think about something. What if the truth that could put all this to rest was in fact hidden in the lines of that poem I wrote to Mom?

Not because I have the answers or know the design of the universe, or even that I know for certain that I chose to come to the world by way of mom and dad and my family.

But isn't it just as plausible as any other assertion anyone can make on this?

What if the choices we make, we somehow contracted with everyone involved before we made them?

Just think about that for a moment.

Thanks again for hanging in there with us.

I'm beyond grateful that you're here.

See you next time.

Division is Optional